Peasant weapons and knights.

These images are found in sources that are not specifically related to fencing manuscripts
Post Reply
User avatar
Roger N
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm
Weapons: Longsword, quarterstaff, dussack, dagger
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Roger N » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:15 am

Found these images in various non-fechtbuchen.

Conrad Grünenberg's Wappenbuch 1483
Herzog Wilhelms IV's Turnierbuch 1512
Emperor Maximilian I "Weisskunig" 1509-1520 (Max I also licensed the Marxbrüder and ought to be quite familiar with all aspects of fighting since he, his father Frederick III and his son Maximilian II had a strong love for the European Martial Arts.)
Attachments
Turnierbuch Herzog Wilhelms IV. von Bayern-04.jpg
And this interesting pic from the Turnierbuch of Herzog Wilhelms IV.
Turnierbuch Herzog Wilhelms IV. von Bayern-04.jpg (230.06 KiB) Viewed 4112 times
turnier-3.jpg
This one is from Conrad Grünenberg’s Wappenbuch. Oddly enough, the fighter on the left appears to lead with his left hand, although it might be due to artistic license to create symmetry or something...
turnier-3.jpg (440.06 KiB) Viewed 4112 times
beck_26129.jpg
This probably shows emperor Maximilian I with halberds. I believe it is taken from "Der Weisskunig", as is the image below.
beck_26129.jpg (100.51 KiB) Viewed 4112 times
beck_26126.jpg
This one is interesting, since it shows armoured spiess fighting without any swords. Also one steps on the others spear, similar to the longsword play by Fiore.
beck_26126.jpg (105.03 KiB) Viewed 4112 times
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
User avatar
Hugh Knight
Instructor
Instructor
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:47 pm
Club: Die Schlachtschule
Weapons: Grappling, dagger, sword & buckler, longsword, spear and pollaxe.
Location: San Bernardino, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Hugh Knight » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:20 pm

Why have you included the longsword and spear bouts in a discussion of "peasant weapons and knights"? Both weapons are profoundly chivalric and were constantly seen in both friendly deeds of arms and in Kampffechten. It's hard to imagine two more knightly weapons than these other than the pollaxe.
Regards,
Hugh Knight
http://www.schlachtschule.org
User avatar
Roger N
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm
Weapons: Longsword, quarterstaff, dussack, dagger
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Roger N » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:09 pm

Agreed that the topic is mistitled considering all images. I was referring to the first image only, which was the only I intended to post at first.

The others are just associated in the sense that they are taken from sources out of fechtbuchen; turnierbuchen etc. Should have changed the title... I fully understand your comment here. Then again, I decided not to change it, since you could also interpret "Peaseant Weapons & Knights" as two separate entitites. :)

I found the first image particularly interesting though.
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
User avatar
Hugh Knight
Instructor
Instructor
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:47 pm
Club: Die Schlachtschule
Weapons: Grappling, dagger, sword & buckler, longsword, spear and pollaxe.
Location: San Bernardino, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Hugh Knight » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:52 am

Roger Norling wrote:Agreed that the topic is mistitled considering all images. I was referring to the first image only, which was the only I intended to post at first.

The others are just associated in the sense that they are taken from sources out of fechtbuchen; turnierbuchen etc. Should have changed the title... I fully understand your comment here. Then again, I decided not to change it, since you could also interpret "Peaseant Weapons & Knights" as two separate entitites. :)

I found the first image particularly interesting though.
Ah, now I see.

As for the picture of Emperor Max, the idea of Freydal, which is where that picture originally comes from, was to show him as a master of all weapons of any type--it even shows him fighting with sword and shield, a form not really practiced in his day--and had little to do with reality. He probably didn't practice with many of the weapons seen in Freydal, a point Sydney Anglo makes in The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe (pp. 158-9).
Regards,
Hugh Knight
http://www.schlachtschule.org
User avatar
Roger N
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm
Weapons: Longsword, quarterstaff, dussack, dagger
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Roger N » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:53 am

Regarding the images I have seen references to them coming from both Freydal and Weisskunig, so thanks for this clarification.

Regarding Maximilians skills and experience, I wouldn't be too surprised if he practiced with many different weapons. Mair shows one or two odd ones, although I agree that both Freydal and Mair needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Still, they might actually show the "truth", albeit likely a little polished. Maximilian likely had close contact with some great fencers though. Looking at the spear picture, it really looks a lot like Vadi's bastard guard, doesn't it? I have to check it, since I haven't studied any Italian sources properly.

Btw, I haven't read it all yet, but I found an article entitled "Marketing Maximilian" by Larry Silver. I thought others might find it interesting. I have it on pdf.

Also, this text describes Freydal and Maximilian a bit. http://books.google.se/books?id=aLzW7-T ... an&f=false
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
User avatar
Hugh Knight
Instructor
Instructor
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:47 pm
Club: Die Schlachtschule
Weapons: Grappling, dagger, sword & buckler, longsword, spear and pollaxe.
Location: San Bernardino, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Hugh Knight » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:26 am

Roger Norling wrote:Regarding Maximilians skills and experience, I wouldn't be too surprised if he practiced with many different weapons.
Nor would I. But I would be surprised if he practiced with out-of-date forms or with peasant weapons, just as Anglo suggests.
Still, they might actually show the "truth", albeit likely a little polished. Maximilian likely had close contact with some great fencers though. Looking at the spear picture, it really looks a lot like Vadi's bastard guard, doesn't it? I have to check it, since I haven't studied any Italian sources properly.
Or, based on what we know about the propoganda nature of the book, it might represent a complete fabrication, and any similarity between what we see in the pictures might have been put there by the artist and Max's fight master, with Max himself neither posing for nor having much specific input on the specific things shown in the paintings.
Regards,
Hugh Knight
http://www.schlachtschule.org
User avatar
Roger N
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm
Weapons: Longsword, quarterstaff, dussack, dagger
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Roger N » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:31 am

Have to get a copy of Anglo's article, it seems... :)

Edit: I just noticed that another image from Herzog Wilhelm IV showing armoured flail fencing is included in Anglo's book. I am curious as to what Anglo says there...
Attachments
Turnierbuch Herzog Wilhelms IV. von Bayern-05.jpg
Turnierbuch Herzog Wilhelms IV. von Bayern-05.jpg (23.14 KiB) Viewed 4092 times
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
User avatar
Hugh Knight
Instructor
Instructor
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:47 pm
Club: Die Schlachtschule
Weapons: Grappling, dagger, sword & buckler, longsword, spear and pollaxe.
Location: San Bernardino, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Hugh Knight » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:42 am

Roger Norling wrote:Have to get a copy of Anglo's article, it seems... :)
It's a book, not an article: Anglo, S., The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe, Yale Univ. Press, 2000

And the material in question is just a few lines. He points out that many of the weapon forms in Freydal were out of date and old fashioned by the time of its publication in a section where he discusses forms that were out of date by the 16th century, or simply not applicable--such as the scimitar.
Regards,
Hugh Knight
http://www.schlachtschule.org
User avatar
Hugh Knight
Instructor
Instructor
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:47 pm
Club: Die Schlachtschule
Weapons: Grappling, dagger, sword & buckler, longsword, spear and pollaxe.
Location: San Bernardino, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Hugh Knight » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:48 am

Roger Norling wrote:Edit: I just noticed that another image from Herzog Wilhelm IV showing armoured flail fencing is included in Anglo's book. I am curious as to what Anglo says there...
Nothing; Anglo doesn't go through the book plate-by-plate. There are *lots* of plates of Max fighting (always victoriously), with all kinds of weapons, including "virtually every weapon known to man" as Anglo sarcastically points out (p. 158), such as "the short hammer and targe, short staff, Ahlspieß, Langspieß, bastard sword, mace and targe, scimitar, two-handed sword, dagger, sword and large shield, thrusting spear, and flail." (Anglo p. 158)
Regards,
Hugh Knight
http://www.schlachtschule.org
User avatar
Roger N
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm
Weapons: Longsword, quarterstaff, dussack, dagger
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Peasant weapons and knights.

Post by Roger N » Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:50 am

Yep, I noticed that it was a book after I posted. :)

Still, I am not entirely convinced regarding disputing the likelyhood that Maximilian occassionally practiced with odd or out-of-fashion weapons. From what I understand, he was quite enthusiastic, or at least wanted to keep up that image, in learning European martial arts and considering that the Marxbruder and Federfechters appear to have practiced with the longsword and halberd all the way up to the early 18th century and both he, his father and his son had ties to these brotherhoods.

However, I agree that it is most likely part of an attempt at creating an image of an exceptional and versatile fighter. I have only glanced through "Marketing Maximilian", but it has a lot to say on the topic.
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
Post Reply

Return to “Not from fencing manuscripts”