Portraits and illustrators

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Portraits and illustrators

Post by Roger N » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:23 am

In relation to the discussion about Emperor Maximilian and the fechtbruderschaft... I have been thinking of two topics I haven't seen discussed much:

First; Portraits of the masters.
Egerton Castle picked two pictures from Meyers that he thinks portrays Meyer, and I agree that it would seem likely. Talhoffer has a picture of himself, from what I remember. Which others do we know of? I am sure there are quite a few from the 17th century and onwards. I'll have to browse through the material I have.

Second; Who were the illustrators of the manuscripts?
We know of Albrecht Dürer of course. Also Lukas Cranach may have done some work, as well as Hans Burgkmaier. Georg Rüxner, Leonhard Beck and Albrecht Altdorfer are also interesting names for the Renaissance Liechtenauer line.

I have been thinking of posting this on other forums as well, and might do so soon.
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

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http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
Kevin Maurer
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Re: Portraits and illustrators

Post by Kevin Maurer » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:06 pm

Greetings Roger, What a great collection of data you have made available to us all. Thank you so much. I'll spend a good bit of time here.
In reference to your question about the "illustrators" of the Meyer manuscript in particular.
Here is a little info on the Monograms of the artists who did the 1570 plates:.

The following paragraph is a translation from the footnotes on page 53 of Dr Robert Naumanns book Serapeum and is most revealing of the woodcutters involved in Meyers' 1570 works, including Joachim Meyer himself????

" Joachim Meyer should incidently, not only be known as a Freifechter, but also as a Formschneider, by the way its shown in his Book Kunst des Fechtens, also the monograms of other Formschneider for example: (probably a Stimmer the Formcutter was, and not the well known monogram of Tobias Stimmer, the Famed Woodcarver, still less likely Christoffel van Sichem) Plates III. und XVII shown on the left KVS (the monogram?) to the right of that indication with the Woodcarving knife."
This is an error by Dr. Naumann the KVS and the LVS Plate A Longsword, are used to show the Langenschneid and Kurtzerschnied Long/Short edge.

Plate A Longsword is extremely revealing in that it shows clearly the Monogram of the Formschneider. Look at the Column on the right hand side, follow it down to the bottom and there you will see what Dr, Naumann pictured in his Book; a CS with an H superimposed. As was common in 1570, the Schnitzmesser or woodcarving knife is included with the HCS. This i have confirmed is the monogram of Hans Christoph Stimmer, younger brother to the more famous Tobias Stimmer. Whose monogram does not appear anywhere in the 1570.
Again with plate 106r from the Rappier, we see an MB with the schnitzmesser over it.
Also Plate B of the Dagger shows a C over a W
I wonder if Dr Forgeng had access to this book Serapeum? What led him to conclude it was Tobias Stimmer? Many sources on Monograms, conclude it was Tobias Stimmer, who was responsible for the Meyer 1570 (Strassburg).
Through my own study of these Plates, I have seen inconsistencies supporting a single carver. The plates have always represented a good portion of the true value of Meyers' work. Through their clear and concise imaging, we are better able to understand his Art. Mike Cartier has always talked about the Plates, and the possibility that the figures were interchangeable, and not one giant woodcarving done from a single piece of wood. This is in keeping with the methods of the era. As are the Monograms of the various Woodcarvers. i feel the animals are representative of a particular carvers style or influence.

One could further theorize that Joachim Meyer, being Messerschmidt, could have been involved in the manufacture of these Schnitzmesser, the Woodcarving knifes. That is one possibility, there are others.
But overall, when one compares the tremendous artistry that went into Meister Meyers 1570 works, it is now more plausible that He himself had something more to do with the Art and Carving than initially thought. This is just my fantastic opinion.

Again, The following plates all contain a monogram presumably of the woodcarver(s);
Plate A Longsword
Plate 106R Rappier
Plate G1 Rappier (this same monogram is also found in Plate B of the Dagger, much clearer)

So thats at least 3 different Formschneider, Nowhere have I been able to find the Monogram of Tobias Stimmer which is a T over S, sometime in the late 1570's, he was joined by a Christoph Maurer , a Swiss Born artist who apprenticed under Stimmer, these Monograms were a T S and an M. Unfortunately that appears nowhere either.
Nor have I found Joachim Meyers Monogram which would presumably have been a JM or IM. But Dr Naumann seems to have found evidence of Meyer being a Formschneider. Where? It may very well be that all these monogrms belonged to Apprentices of Tobias Stimmer, I'm not clear on how that worked back then. I contacted Dr Jeff Forgeng, who advised me to not place to much credence on the Naumann works? And given Naumann's error in mistaking the KVS /LVS in Plate A longsword, I am inclined to agree with Dr. Forgeng.
Also I have seen several Rappier Plates wherein there appears to be a name or signature written on or right besides the Fencer. I must get Mike to provide these plates that contain that. They are not in the 1570 that i have.
As for the 1560, these I believe were watercolors, done by an unknown artist?
And unfortunately the Ms 82 Rostock does not contain any Plates of fencers, and only includes two cutting Diagrams. But is a Goldmine of pertinent information on Joachim Meyer himself!
Thanks again for this great database.
Kevin Maurer
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Re: Portraits and illustrators

Post by Roger N » Tue May 04, 2010 12:17 pm

My God(s) what a great and deep response. Thanks for a truly impressiv first post on the board and a warm welcome here! I am really glad you decided to join us, and I am sure we have a few things to talk about... :)
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
User avatar
Roger N
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Posts:701
Joined:Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:13 pm
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Re: Portraits and illustrators

Post by Roger N » Wed May 12, 2010 6:49 am

I recently found this reference to the von Auerswald manual and the school of Lucas Cranach:

“A woodblock print of a painting by Sebald Bechem called Die grosse Dorfkirchweih shows German villagers dancing, running, and wrestling as part of their "Big Village Church Dedication."
The wrestling done was probably similar to that shown in the book by Fabian von Auerswald called Ringer-Kunst: funff und achtzig stücke ("Art of Wrestling: Fifty-Eight Tricks").
The illustrations in this book were by the school of Lucas Cranach, and the wrestling described was agonistic (geselliges Ringen) rather than antagonistic. Therefore, men were unarmored, and typical tricks included trips, leg pick-ups, and grapevines. The printer of this book, Hans Lufft of Wittenberg, was also the printer of Luther’s Bible.”

And regarding Salvator Fabris

"Bolognese fencing master Salvator Fabris publishes Scienza e Pratica d’Arme ("About Fencing, or Rather, the Science of Arms") in Copenhagen. A rapier manual produced for Christian IV, King of Denmark and Norway, the text and illustrations showed the fencer using the sword rather than the left hand for defense. (The Dutch artist Halbeek made the 190 copperplates that illustrate the text.) "

Source: http://ejmas.com/kronos/NewHist1350-1699.htm

The site has a lot of interesting info, although details are sometimes wrong and there are no proper references. Still, it gives you a fairly good timeline.

I think at least some quotes are in common with this book: http://www.bokfynd.nu/1576071502.html
Roger Norling

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild

Member of MFFG
http://www.freifechter.com

Member of HEMAC
http://www.hemac.org

Chief editor HROARR
http://www.hroarr.com
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