Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

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Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Roger N » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:33 pm

In my opinion it is quite difficult to implement proper free sparring with Meyer's techniques since they are quite likely to lead to serious injury. This has to do with how Meyer advises to fight, not rarely with one handed techniques and with powerful versetzen/streichen. It simply makes proper control very hard to maintain at the same time as it makes it very hard to perform these techniques with lighter and often flexible staffs. This is quite different from for instance the staff techniques of Paulus Hector Mair or manuscripts like Jeu de la Hache.

With this in mind, here is a list of possible ways of minimizing this problem.

1. Higher requirements for student's skills before being allowed to spar with Meyer staff.

Longsword and dussack sparring can be done quite early, but staff requires both very good control, but also very good situational awareness.


2. Slow sparring.

This connects to #1, since slow sparring would still be dangerous for a beginner.


3. Limited sparring

Only a chosen selection of techniques would be allowed. One hand strikes would likely not be allowed.


4. Sparring with lighter and/or padded weapons.

This connects to #3. Lighter/padded weapons will affect e.g. how you can do Ruck/Reissen, ie striking the opponent's staff away with a short or long strike.

5. More protective gear.
A problem here is the fact that part of the protection lies in mass, ie more weight. A steel helmet can weigh up to 4kg and protects well because of that. A fencing mask weighs less than half that and has no real suspension to protect against impact.

There is currently no really good protective gear that suits our needs and looks good enough. The best alternative I have fund thus far is the riot gear sold by KMNW, but I haven't had a chance to try it. A proper helmet alongside of neck protection would likely also be required for safe sparring with heavier staffs.

However, we are also talking to a manufacturer of riot gear that has shown an interest in making protection for HEMA and maybe we can work something out there.

6. Attacking short
In Jogo do Pau, much of the free fencing is done out of range, so that you intentionally keep that partner safe, by striking a bit too short. This can be a bit dangerous, especially for the hands, but works reasonably well, as long as everyone is in control and has the skills to pull it off.

Finally, these suggestions are not meant to be used in isolation. Together they may perhaps give us a better understanding of the principles of techniques in Meyer's section on Halber Stangen.
Roger Norling

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Re: Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Frederico Martins » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:59 pm

Hi Roger,
practicing freeplay in jdp out of range is actually wrong and we are strongly adviced and constantly corrected by out masters about it.

it is a common thing that happens when we get lazy and some groups end up practicing like that for lack of guidance or if the practice is only for demonstrations, but in our group, master Nuno Russo and Luis Preto, it is strongly adviced against. If you only practice out of range and striking to the stick, when facing someone that strikes correctly, you will not know how to parry.

what happens is that when parrying we step back, almost or even out of range, and step in for countering, but when the strike is done, it should always be done to reach the opponent.

In the gif I made if you use the backgroud vertical lines as reference, it is a sequence of parrying and countering, you notice that the strike would reach the opponent if he kept there, if not the head, the torso, arms or the legs. (it is hard to notice since the staff's tip gets blurred by the motion blur, but if you look carefully you can notice it)

Image

Just wanted to mention that. I don’t think you would have a problem with practicing out of range sometimes, because your group ends up practicing with protections and there you have to actually hit, but groups only practicing with real weapons and doing wrong distance is a curse(I’ve seen in some groups around here and other places) and people might think they are doing something martially significant when they aren’t.
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Re: Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Roger N » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:18 am

Hi Frederico and thanks for taking the time to respond here, with your views on JdP!

I agree that in a way it is wrong, but I was thinking of trying it as a temporary solution while training, that we will stop doing as the skill grows. The idea is to work towards always striking to actually hit by first attacking slightly in front of the head, by perhaps 10-20cm. It would usually not be aiming for the opponent's weapon, although Meyer at one instance mentions striking both the head and/or staff.
Meyer, like Jogo do Pau, has a lot of one-hand strikes that are very hard to control and you risk injuring your partner quite badly in sparring, especially when using oak bo staffs (183cm). Some time ago I knocked out my parter when I struck a quite loose strike to the chin of the fencing mask and that gave me a new, deep respect for the power of a longer oak staff. They should be used with deep respect. My partner had a bad neck for 3-4 weeks afterwards. Had I struck his collar bone instead, it would have been broken, or rather been crushed. The same goes for the fingers, the shins and so on. It is not something we can risk in regular practice.

And, although I am sure it is not regularly recommended in JdP, I have certainly seen it done in beginner's practice and I even think we were at first told to practice like this by Luis the first class he had at Swordfish. I may remember this wrong, though. I do see it in sparring with even advanced JdP fencers, but I think striking short is used for a completely different reason then; to put pressure on the opponent by continually striking, which of course is also very important and is completely in line with German fencing. You strike no matter what, even if you can't reach your opponent, and if the opponent blocks a short strike, then you are in good position for a thrust or if he displaces hard, you continue forward for another strike in range. However, it is not in line with Meyer, in my current understanding of his style.

Finally, relying on the defender to always step may work in Jogo do Pau with shorter staffs, but from what I can tell, very few actually spar like this with long, heavy staffs. Stepping back simply isn't enough in Meyer staff sparring, since sooner or later, one of the combatants will be hit. With short JdP-staffs it is a little bit easier to control the staffs I think and Masters like Luis and Nuno are experts at working with different speeds and force. We are not though. So, if we want to spar completely freely Meyer-style, with force and dangerous weapons, I really think we need to figure out a combination that works. Light staffs are not the solution in my opinion, since too may techniques will not work. Most likely, we will be using a combination of the suggestions in the list above. As such, I would rather call it "free fencing" than actual sparring. The purpose here is not to learn how to win, but rather to learn to respond correctly to a threat and learn how to use the Meyer techniques dynamically. Therefore, counting actual "hits" would be superfluous, since it is not relevant.

Of course, technical exercises are a completely different matter. Then we certainly train to actually strike, but the opponent is ready then and is prepared to parry correctly, while stepping accordingly.
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Re: Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Frederico Martins » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:15 pm

Hi Roger,

I don't think your group would have a problem with practicing out of range if it is part of your practice as a step of learning, and I know you are conscious of that, just don't want to pass the notion that that is an ideal thing in jdp, that even if it happens in some groups and demonstrations, for safety, it is very bad for long time practice and it completely ruins efficiency in groups that no longer fight for necessity and neglect distance.

Sorry I can't comment much on Meyer specifically since I don't study it :( don't want to off topic this too much.
But I would love to see some free play videos from you guys.
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Re: Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Roger N » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:14 pm

That's cool! I didn't think of the possibility that I might give people the wrong impression of JdP... :)

I think there are many valid reasons for attacking out of distance though, and I think some of them are used in JdP as well. For instance:

1. Keeping of the initiative by forcing the opponent to parry and/or retreat. Works even better if the opponent is unsure of distance handling and therefore tries to parry everything. This is quite "German". Probably doesn't work quite as well with staffs, but is vital in longsword fencing.

2. Opening up the opponent for a second attack in range, by forcing him to reveal an opening, either with a parry or a counter-strike. This is especially true if the opponent is more agile than yourself.

3. The lucky strike-factor. You simply keep on striking, and if the opponent is stupid enough to step in range, then he will get hit.

4. Intimidation. With a less experienced fencer, striking first will unsettle him.

5. Multiple opponents. Any strike will either hit, keep the opponent occupied or force him to keep his distance.

To the untrained eye, all of the above may make it seem as if JdP-fencers do not properly strike at the opponent.

Anyhow, we will start recording some videos of the Meyer techniques soon. Eventually, as we feel that we have some dynamics in the free fencing, we will record some videos of that as well. Still not quite sure of what the balance between the Meyer techniques should be. It is a tricky question, since there are many smart moves and some slow, but powerful ones, that I suspect were used only occasionally.
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Re: Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Frederico Martins » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:08 pm

Hi Roger, agree with all those, but that shouldn't be the constant, and used only when they make sense, like you described. because shortening your attacks can also give an opportunity to your opponent if he knows how.

that kind of strikes and other stuff are also more "advanced" decisions, and if you want to keep it safe and practice the basics I would say to practice free play with just the basic attacks, parries and counters, without having to make those more deceiving moves that are part of a fight of course but are also harder to see and can get you hurt, specially when people are not safe with their parries and basic technique. So having a more "clean" but strong and technically rigorouse fight with the real weapons specially for beginners and to apply that more advanced and deceiving fighting skills you can do at full speed with protections (with the disadvantages of not using real weapons but is the only way to do it safely anyway).

well, that is just what I think, I'm no kind of authority in combat pedagogy :)
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Re: Ways of implementing sparring with Meyer's techniques

Post by Roger N » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:15 pm

A couple of further comments on how to do free fencing with staffs.

First of all, distance management is vital, especially when standing in Oberhut, Unterhut or Nebenhut. All three are quite vulnerable if you stand too close, since you are too slow to be able to parry well, if your opponent can thrust in without making a proper step.

Second of all, the aim of free fencing is not to win or hit well, but rather to create dynamic movement, both in thrusting, striking and parrying, but also in distance management. If you try too hard to win, you risk loosing focus and either use bad footwork or bad binding, which easily leads either to a double hit, or allowing your opponent to hit you in nachreissen. This is precisely what Meyer advises against and he actually teaches how to manipulate adversaries that are too eager to win.
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