High and low guard

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High and low guard

Post by Sternis » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:47 pm

A subject I feel is very related to the outside and inside is the high and low guards as far as polearms, and especially regarding staffs and spears, are the terms high and low guard. Different masters have different opinion which would be the high guard and the low guard (I don't remember who says what). I'll take spear as an example, beacause that is something I have at least a little experience with.

Some are of the opinion that the high guard is when you hold your hands up high, and let the spearhead point towards the floor and that low guard is when you hold hands low and point your spearhead towards your opponents head. I'll call it the Hand Definition fro reference.
In contradiction to that, some say that the high guard is when you hold your spearhead up higher (towards the opponents head) and that the low guard is when you hold the spearhead pointing towards the floor. I'll call it the Spearhead Definition.

I believe both have it's point and that you could use either one of them. However, I realize that there would be much confusion if some people use one definiotion, and others the other. Therefore, I would like have a discussion of what definition we should use.

I'm not sure which definition I would like to use. Since we are talking about high and low GUARDS, I feel that they should be defined by how you guard yourself. In a way, I can feel it makes sense to use your hands as reference, as these control which attacks you are protected primarily from (you can, of course, protect yourself from both high and low attacks using either guard). But still, your primary protection depends on how you use your guards. If you prefer to parry using the front end of the spear, this would lead to contradiction using the Hand Definition, since you guard primarily against low attacks with the high guard.
And, of course, it's the other way around using the Spearhead Def. Even though you hold your spearhead low and hands high, you could still guard yourself from high using the staff, rather than the spearhead.

I think I would prefer to use the Spearhead Def. myself, since I find it hard to guard against low attacks using the high guard (Spearhead Def.)

What are you others peoples' opinions regarding this matter?
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Hugh Knight » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:21 pm

Ringeck, von Danzig and others make a pretty clear distinction. The first guard is the guard from which you throw a spear, held with the spear above your head and the point aimed at your opponent (it is never used for fighting, although you wind into a similar position when you wind up in the bind). The second guard is a lower guard: "If you don’t want to shoot your spear, then hold him near your right side in the lower guard and in that manner approach him." (Ringeck fol. 90r) They are quite clear about this because they talk about thrusting up from this lower guard.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Greg Mele » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:03 pm

Similarly, the low guard in the 16th c Italian material is with the hands low, point high.

I think that most students find it more instinctual to relate "low/high" to where their hands are.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Roger N » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:50 am

It is confusing and I can think of a couple of reasons, like we discussed shortly at practice.

As you mentioned, it may relate to where you actually are supposed to parry primarily; with the part in front of the leading hand or inbetween your hands. A guard with the point high and rear low can actually defend from an unterhau, but as you note, is difficult and slow against a low thrust. With more staff behind the rear hand it is also easier to parry low thrusts.

Secondly, it could be that the Hands Def is more common in earlier sources, where the first guard is used for throwing of spears and the spearhead def more common later in fechtschulen with staffs. The quarterstaff and the spear may certainly have been quite separate traditions originally.

I think Mair uses the reversed terms, high guard = pflug, low guard = hengen/steuerhut. Not sure about Meyer.

There are advantages to both types of parries, one protects you in zufecthen and the other lets you enter into krieg. In between parries can keep you safer and let you thrust quicker into the opponent or move in to wrench or strike from any side. However, it requires armour or great agility to be able to move close safely behind the opponent's point. There is much more to say about this, but I have to go.

I have no proper indications if any of these suggestions are correct but I certainly think it would be interesting to look deeper into this.

And once again, I think it would be a good idea to create a list of modern definitions of terms used with various polearms. I have a new tool coming up soon at this site that might prove useful for this purpose. More on that later.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Hugh Knight » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:33 am

Roger Norling wrote:It is confusing and I can think of a couple of reasons, like we discussed shortly at practice.

As you mentioned, it may relate to where you actually are supposed to parry primarily; with the part in front of the leading hand or inbetween your hands. A guard with the point high and rear low can actually defend from an unterhau, but as you note, is difficult and slow against a low thrust. With more staff behind the rear hand it is also easier to parry low thrusts.

Secondly, it could be that the Hands Def is more common in earlier sources, where the first guard is used for throwing of spears and the spearhead def more common later in fechtschulen with staffs. The quarterstaff and the spear may certainly have been quite separate traditions originally.

I think Mair uses the reversed terms, high guard = pflug, low guard = hengen/steuerhut. Not sure about Meyer.

There are advantages to both types of parries, one protects you in zufecthen and the other lets you enter into krieg. In between parries can keep you safer and let you thrust quicker into the opponent or move in to wrench or strike from any side. However, it requires armour or great agility to be able to move close safely behind the opponent's point. There is much more to say about this, but I have to go.

I have no proper indications if any of these suggestions are correct but I certainly think it would be interesting to look deeper into this.

And once again, I think it would be a good idea to create a list of modern definitions of terms used with various polearms. I have a new tool coming up soon at this site that might prove useful for this purpose. More on that later.
Hi Roger,

I don't know about staff play in the 16th century, but I can tell you that all displacements with a spear in Ringeck, von Danzig, Gladiatoria, Goliath, etc., etc. are *all* done from the lower guard--none are done from the upper guard. There are a couple of spear plays in Talhoffer's Ambraser Codex that I'm unsure about in this regard, but as they have no text at all and as it's impossible to be sure who's doing what in the pictures, I wouldn't make too much out of that.

I've heard that late-period staff work is somehow connected with spear work, but in the 15th-century material I see no evidence whatsoever for that.

Frankly, in the 15th-century material, *all* spear techniques, both attacks and defenses, are done in the lower guard with the following exceptions: The Winden (all spear Winden are done into the upper Hengen, there are no lower Winden in the spear material) and casting or shooting the spear. And even the Winden *starts* in the lower guard--you only pick your hands up to wind after the bind.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Roger N » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:46 am

And this is of course natural when fighting an opponent in full armour. Without getting into that long other discussion... :) With less armour a thrust to the thigh comes quite natural. Such parries and attacks are described with the staff that is used as a spear in fechtschulen.

I am curious about a few of the illustrations in Gladiatoria, but I haven't read any translation of that manuscript so I really don't know what is going on. It does look as if there are a few thrusts going downwards, and especially one illustration where it is still aimed high in an ochs-like position against someone aiming at the thigh.

Damn, I keep getting locked up in all these interesting discussions, when I really have other things to take care of... :D

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Re: High and low guard

Post by Hugh Knight » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:26 pm

Roger Norling wrote:And this is of course natural when fighting an opponent in full armour. Without getting into that long other discussion... :) With less armour a thrust to the thigh comes quite natural. Such parries and attacks are described with the staff that is used as a spear in fechtschulen.

I am curious about a few of the illustrations in Gladiatoria, but I haven't read any translation of that manuscript so I really don't know what is going on. It does look as if there are a few thrusts going downwards, and especially one illustration where it is still aimed high in an ochs-like position against someone aiming at the thigh.
Hi Roger,

Do you have any evidence for unarmored spear combat in any of the early Fechtbücher? Sure, Meyer teaches the unarmored pike, but I think that's apples and oranges--the 15th vs. the 16th century versions of the arts.

I will admit that there are plays in Talhoffer's Ambraser Codex that may show unarmored spear (or they may just show armored spear techniques being demonstrated out of armor), but all the spear material in these earlier sources *is* armored. That's why this remains an important issue.

As for Gladiatoria, it's ironic you should mention that since I published a translation of that, as you know, and I forgot that there is a thrust from above with the spear. Folio 1v says:
"Note the first technique of the spear: When you first step into the lists and become aware of your opponent, then take your shield in your left hand and ready the spear for a strong thrust from above. And look where best you can hit him with your thrust." http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/4.jpg
I think the reason I left this out is because it's a one-handed thrust; rather a specialized technique.

Then, on folio 2v we read:
"Note the third technique of the spear: If he grabbed his spear with full strength and wants to thrust to your face, then place your spear before you on the ground with the iron up and thrust up from below so that you save yourself from the thrust he wanted to do to your face, and turn your point forward and thrust back at him as well as you can." http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/6.jpg
Here I think I ignored this play because the real technique is being done by the other person, not the one who seems to be thrusting from above. The same is true of fol. 3v.

In other examples, however, what looks like a thrust from above is actually the preparation for a throw, such as in fol. 5r:
"Note the eighth technique: Take your spear for a strong throw, and take care if you can hit so that you do not throw it in vain. Now if he throws at you, then take your spear with strength and have a look where you can hit him, and work with your spear as long as you can." http://www.thehaca.com/Manuals/Gladiatoria/11.jpg Folio 5v shows the same circumstance.

So most of these cases reflect either special circumstances or show a high thrust from the guy who's supposed to lose in the play--in almost every case the technique being taught is done from a low guard.

By the way, if there's a plate in Gladiatoria about which you're unsure, please don't hesitate to ask--I'll be happy to give you the translation.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Roger N » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:37 pm

Well you expanded on the subject very well yourself. :)

And as we have already discussed: All manuscripts show harnischfecthen in full armour. However, knights certainly met opponents with less armour on the battle field and a reasonably logical deduction is that they occassionally thrust from above at such opponents. Our views and approaches differ here, so there is no reason to expand more here, at least not at this time...

Finally, Gladiatoria, here are a few images I am curious about, when discussing the high guard, ie hanging point.

Image

I understand that this is a preparation for a throw, but with a strong defense if he throws first. Still it looks like he is preparing to thrust from above and it is a bit vague.

Image

Image

Although the "high-thruster" may be on the losing end this can imply that you had to learn how to defend against such thrusts, which means that it likely was used by certain opponents. Why, we don't really know. Perhaps it was used occassionally by some knights who fought under Liechtenauer principles, perhaps it was used by knights of different training and perhaps it was done under certain circumstances and in specific contexts.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Shay Roberts » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:07 pm

Roger Norling wrote: Image
I understand that this is a preparation for a throw, but with a strong defense if he throws first. Still it looks like he is preparing to thrust from above and it is a bit vague.
Roger, this has always struck me as one of the more interesting spear plates. You rarely see an illustration of someone exposing their armpit to a spear point and this seems to be an exception. However, the way I've come to understand it is that the fighter on the left has already thrown his spear before the fighter on the right comes at him that way.

Also, of course, in many cases the distance is cheated to get both fighters in frame, and that can make things look weird.

More puzzling to me is the strange, left-handed grip used by the fighter on the right. Makes me think he was in a right trailing guard and has just cleared the incoming spear.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Hugh Knight » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:11 pm

Shay Roberts wrote:Roger, this has always struck me as one of the more interesting spear plates. You rarely see an illustration of someone exposing their armpit to a spear point and this seems to be an exception. However, the way I've come to understand it is that the fighter on the left has already thrown his spear before the fighter on the right comes at him that way.
This play is fairly clear: Larry (the one on the left) throws his spear, and Ralph (on the right) lifts his hands from a low guard into a high guard to defend against the throw. It is odd that's he's using a right hand forward grip, granted, but you see lots of weird stuff in Gladiatoria; It's possible the artist drew it his way to make the position of the spear more clear. There's only one other plate showing a right-hand foward grip (fol. 2v), and again, there, I can see how the artist might draw him backward to show the spear in front of his body so you can see what he's doing. Or maybe they did, in fact, change grips in these two plates; after all, a book that shows something as ridiculous as throwing a pommel can be expected to have other peculiarities as well. The point is there's no reason to imagine a trailing right guard here, and no exposing of the armpit.
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