High and low guard

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Hugh Knight
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Hugh Knight » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:21 pm

Roger Norling wrote:Well you expanded on the subject very well yourself. :)
Thank you, I just wanted to make it clear Gladiatoria supports my contention about fighting from the low guard.
Finally, Gladiatoria, here are a few images I am curious about, when discussing the high guard, ie hanging point.

Image

I understand that this is a preparation for a throw, but with a strong defense if he throws first. Still it looks like he is preparing to thrust from above and it is a bit vague.
This shows a one-handed preparation for a throw, *not* a thrust from above, and the other figure is defending against same. I don't think we could call this very vague.
Although the "high-thruster" may be on the losing end this can imply that you had to learn how to defend against such thrusts, which means that it likely was used by certain opponents. Why, we don't really know. Perhaps it was used occassionally by some knights who fought under Liechtenauer principles, perhaps it was used by knights of different training and perhaps it was done under certain circumstances and in specific contexts.
Well, while I believe Gladiatoria falls into the Liechtenauer school, it also shows things not included in the strict canon (e.g., the ausschlagen on fol. 1v). Even so, Ringeck shows how to counter an opponent who strikes from above with the edge of his sword in Harnischfechten, calling him someone who "knows nothing of the art", so Gladiatoria is not alone in showing bad technique being countered. That doesn't counter the idea that skilled, trained spearmen used the spear in the low guard, and not in the upper.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Sternis » Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:17 am

Greg Mele wrote:Similarly, the low guard in the 16th c Italian material is with the hands low, point high.

I think that most students find it more instinctual to relate "low/high" to where their hands are.
Perhaps you're right about that. As I said, I'd use any term, as long as we all end up using the same terms, to avoid confusion.
Hugh Knight wrote:This play is fairly clear: Larry (the one on the left) throws his spear, and Ralph (on the right) lifts his hands from a low guard into a high guard to defend against the throw. It is odd that's he's using a right hand forward grip, granted, but you see lots of weird stuff in Gladiatoria; It's possible the artist drew it his way to make the position of the spear more clear. There's only one other plate showing a right-hand foward grip (fol. 2v), and again, there, I can see how the artist might draw him backward to show the spear in front of his body so you can see what he's doing. Or maybe they did, in fact, change grips in these two plates; after all, a book that shows something as ridiculous as throwing a pommel can be expected to have other peculiarities as well. The point is there's no reason to imagine a trailing right guard here, and no exposing of the armpit.
That is something we have to take into account when studying old manuscripts; The fact that 15th century artisst were not the very best at capturing the scene excactly as it was. Seeing drawings of people with two right hands is not that uncommon. Also, the distace may also be a little wierd sometimes (as seen in Gladiatoria above), since the artist wanted to have some "artistic freedom". Therefore, I believe it is imoprtant to try and reenact the scene, and experiment to get something that works and would have worked in real combat (humans are not quite as unlike today as they were in the 15th and 16th century)

But, back to the subject, which is what terminology we should use, and not about if people fight with or without armor and which guard you mostly use (evidently, both are used both with or without armor).
It seems that most of you would believe that using the Hands Definition (letting your hands define the high/low guard) would make the most sense. Also, since this seems to define from where your attack comes, which also makes sense I think. And if we look at historical sources, most masters seems to use that definition, at least the earlier ones.
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Re: High and low guard

Post by Shay Roberts » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:19 pm

Sternis wrote: That is something we have to take into account when studying old manuscripts; The fact that 15th century artisst were not the very best at capturing the scene excactly as it was. Seeing drawings of people with two right hands is not that uncommon.
Great point, Sternis! There's the bendy arm in Kal and other places where physical impossibilities are depicted. So we know there are mistakes. When I used to see things I didn't understand, I would often think it was a mistake in the art. Then later I would discover I was misunderstanding something, and the art was correct. So now if there is no physical impossibility depicted, my first assumption is that I am the problem, and not the art; especially in Gladiatoria where the art is pretty nicely done and we have a good translation.

The thumbs-forward hand positions on the 2-handed grips seem odd but are depicted throughout the manuscript. This would get you in trouble in a winding art like Ringeck describes, but here, in a more parry and thrust environment it works okay. For me, comparing Gladiatoria's spear to Ringeck is very much like comparing Le Jeu to Talhoffer, from a stylistic perspective anyway.

Now aside from the thumb positions, how the hands are getting reversed I don't know, but I doubt this presentation is accidental. Whether it represents a transition out of a trailing guard, a left-handed fighter, or a hand switch, I do not know for sure. But I would certainly like to figure it out! I don't think there's any harm in giving the illustrator the benefit of the doubt. I also don't think there's any harm in leaving it unresolved when something doesn't fit. Too many times I have tried to force an interpretation by blaming bad art but I am trying hard now not to do that as much. :)
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